Title should say almost 3 years. Age? 27 -Which 19-nor substance gave you PDD (Deca, Tren, NPP etc.)? Cycle length? Dosage? **Deca** I took the following : **1 year cruise (100mg deca / 500mg test e) (I never tell ppl this because I feel stupid)** -Date your PDD - **Maybe April, May, or June 2020** -Has it been at least 6 months since you last administered the said 19-nor and have your Testosterone, Free Test and Estrogen levels returned to normal either naturally or through TRT? (If the answer to either of these is no then we should be cautious to assume that you actually have PDD. Your focus should be optimising your Test levels) **Yes** -Are you now on TRT or have your Test/ Free Test/ Estro levels returned to normal naturally? Not on TrT **On TRT + HCG** -Give a rating for the following out of 10 compared with before PDD. 10/10 means the same as before (feel free to give further comments): -Sex drive **2/10** **(I can force it tho)** -Erection quality **7/20** -Orgasm Quality **5-6/10 (depends on the day. It fluctuates)** -Ability to experience negative emotion - **easily** -Ability to experience positive emotion - **I can laugh. But I'm emotionally numb** -Ability to experience feelings of confidence (feeling good about being you) **A little** -Feelings of pleasure seeking - **Nope** -Feelings of hunger (thinking about what you will eat and salivating) **Nope** -Ability to handle stress/ not be affected by stress - **A little** -Memory and cognitive ability - **4/10** -Sleep quality **1/10** -Energy levels **5/10** -Depression - **Was totally fine before until I came across your horror stories, and also the fact our symtpoms are the same as PSSD sufferers... depression has gone to 10/10. Sometimes thoughts of suicide** -Anxiety - 0/10 (no anxiety) -Have you seen any change (improvement or worsening) of symptoms since PDD started? **Nope** -Any other symptoms of PDD or changes you think were caused by PDD? -Any other comments? I can deal with the sexual dysfunction, but the anhedonia is an inhumane condition to live with. I'd rather go through chemo therapy!

@"james993"#1 Can you tell me what meds & supplements you've tried?

Your symptoms are pretty typical other than on T-Nation you said that you have derealization disorder (I have had this but it was before I took tren), did your derealization start at the same time as your other symptoms? Do you think Deca caused it? It sounds like you are also more of an extreme case of PDD which is something we have in common. > @"define"#p80 [@james993](https://www.permanentdecadick.com/u/james993) Can you tell me what meds & supplements you've tried? I can but what I will say is that I have improved much more through correcting my systemic issues such as thyroid and adrenal problems than from taking drugs. Healing systemic issues requires a protocol specifically for you based on test results. Would you consider working with someone like Dr Kalish? We should be able to start making improvements to your energy, sleep and cognitive problems. Things other than tailored protocols that I have tried: - Currently trying Wellbutrin. Don't think it's doing much but I noticed I haven't fallen into a state of despair since I started which was common before. - Proviron, definitely the drug that helps me the most. Helps with libido and mood a bit. - Cabergoline - adds to the positive effects of proviron - Rasagiline - no noticeable effect - Bisprolol Fumarate increases my deep sleep - Clonidine also improves my deep sleep Have you done any blood tests?

@"james993"#p81 Around 4 years ago I was partying, doing drugs etc. I thought my condition was due to that, so I waited patiently, with very peace of mind, for my brain to recover. I recently started to wonder if deca was the culprit, and after some searching - came across your posts on T-nation. I then started searching for adrenal treatments and knowledge etc. Last night, I then researched how deca effects the brain, dopamine & serotines etc. I then researched SSRIs, and the side effects, which brought me to the horrifying discovery that what I'm experiencing could be related to that. Since then I've been doing pretty bad mentally, in a state of despair pretty much ever since. Was sleeping fine before, and energy was fine too. My derealization came after I stopped the deca, along with the other symptoms. I'm not considering contacting that Dr right now. Maybe in future. What are your symptoms and have any improved? Also what's the condition of the other guys? They haven't came back to update their condition.

@"define"#p82 My symptoms are in this post https://www.permanentdecadick.com/d/6-intro-post Since I made that post my sleep and stress problems have improved. Now my main symptoms are the anhedonia/ flat emotions and lack of sex drive. Okay so what is your plan? I think you need to find out what is going on in your body before you start taking stuff. I can give you some guidance but I can't interpret the complex tests. Haven't heard from the others for a while.

@"james993"#p83 That's not good man, should stay in touch with them all. I've been planning on doing a 4 point cortisol test with DHEA & progesterone. Could do it Sunday.

@"define"#p84 Yeah I try to Nice, those are good markers to test. It will be good to see what they come back as

@"james993"#p85 Be sure to check everyday as I'll keep you updated.

The past 11 days I've been having on & off panic attacks, which I've never in my life experienced. Derealization went from very mild to severe, along with tunnel vision & some visual problems. The past week was basically a 24/7 nightmarish acid trip, and looking back at it is just a blur and hardly remember anything I did. I haven't been able to get around doing anything other than work. I've naturally recovered a lot now and have done extensive research regarding our condition, with the help of xanax every 3-4 days which 100% annihilates the derealization and clears my head. I think the adrenal theory is a lost cause. Although you're on the right ball and our adrenals definitely are affected, they are not the root cause, and treating them won't solve this. Our adrenals are affected because our entire endocrine system is shot to shit. I've also come to the conclusion that this isn't brain related. **My theory** From looking at your posts James, I think you've also considered this. I think we've messed up our gut microbiome axis. Look at [this](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6314837/) study on how steroids can alter the gut microbiome. I remember when I first started my deca cycle, I had insane digestive problems. My stomach would roar quite loudly and I even had blood in my stool. That went away but came back slightly after stopping deca. Many people have cured their PSSD, PFS, PAS, chronic fatigue syndrome, and other related syndromes by treating their gut. Look [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/PSSD/comments/q03uci/gut_microbiota_theory_how_i_finally_cured_my_pssd/), and [part 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/PSSD/comments/ryj0yo/gut_microbiota_theory_pt_2_pssd_is_an_autoimmune/) and [part 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/PSSD/comments/sonxco/gut_microbiota_theory_part_3_dopamine_receptor/). Make sure to **thoroughly** read as your adrenal theory ties into this. Also [this](https://www.pssdforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2324) person was cured after a fecal transplant. While researching what symptoms people have with SIBO and other related things, I've found their symptoms to be identical to mine. Like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/SIBO/comments/lknj3y/can_sibo_cause_panic_attacks/) reddit user describes feeling "not attached to his body (depersonalization)" and also [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/SIBO/comments/9g606k/does_anyone_else_have_like_depersonalization/) user. I will be running gut tests next week, like a SIBO test etc at the best hospital in Bangkok and I will even try a fecal transplant if the tests do indicate I have gut problems. You can also read [this study](https://www.hilarispublisher.com/open-access/small-bowel-intestinal-overgrowth-sibo-a-gender--specific-hormone-disease.pdf) on how low dose deca can treat SIBO and other gut related disorders. This glows more evidence on how much of an influence steroids has on the gut axis. @"james993"#1 you may also find [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTFjS7MZa3o) to be interesting to listen to Keep you updated. Edit - I also forgot to tell you my symptoms intensify depending on my diet.

@"define"#p87 Hi dude, sorry to hear about the panic and anxiety issues you have been having. I am guessing these have been triggered by learning that PSSD and PDD are similar? Derealization is massively increased by anxiety so hopefully we can find a better solution for the anxiety than xanax. I recommend trying L-theanine. > @"define"#p87 I think the adrenal theory is a lost cause. Although you're on the right ball and our adrenals definitely are affected, they are not the root cause, and treating them won't solve this. Our adrenals are affected because our entire endocrine system is shot to shit. > > I've also come to the conclusion that this isn't brain related. I agree that adrenals most likely are not the root cause but it's still important that we don't neglect the HPA. I would disagree with the conclusion you have come to about it not being brain related especially because we can not say this for sure. I would encourage keeping an open mind instead of coming to definitive conclusions :) Did you test the cortisol, DHEA, progesterone by the way? Yes I think it is very possible that gut microbiome is related here and I think doing gut tests are a good idea, however I don't think hospital tests will give you enough information. There are better tests that you can do but they will not be cheap, however they are a good start. I have tested myself in the past and there were some issues but nothing major. Perhaps I would have seen benefits if I had treated those issues. Fecal transplant is something that I may try in the future. I don't want to discourage you because I think the fact that you want to test is great, however try to be aware of cognitive bias when you research things. Sometimes when we want something to be true (because it has a simple fix) we put too much weight on small evidence we find and we ignore other things (I am victim to my own cognitive bias too). I think we should try to keep an open mind overall. Having said that, I have not yet looked at the links you sent. I will do this later.

@"james993"#p88 I only use the xanax when I really need it. I've used xanax maybe 4 years ago, but luckily it was only for 2-3 weeks, and the withdrawal was 3 days of no sleep. I'm more educated about this stuff and I'm being careful with it. I have theanine and a host of other supplements. I bought many things back when I thought my problem was induced by past drug abuse. I even have 9-me-bc, NSI-189 and other nootropics. I probably have a really strong upregulated dopamine system, but our condition stops it from working D: The panic attacks were triggered by the realization of this being related to PSSD. And yes derealization is a symptom of panic. I had to research this stuff to find out what the hell is wrong with me, and that I'm not going insane. But it's weird, because before realizing any of this, I was totally calm & panic-free, and yet had mild derealization. I can only conclude that something is disrupting my brain's neurotransmitters, like the gut axis or HPA axis, or whatever. I didn't do the cortisol test since the past 11 days have been hellish. And also it'll cost me 20,000 baht to do it. Right now I'd rather chase my theory, and the gut tests I'll be doing will cost around 10,000-15,000 baht. I'll try to keep an open mind, but I just have a strong hunch I'm on the right track. Like, it's just not normal to shit blood, be bloated, and have gas every 10 minutes. And it's not bowel cancer since I had that tested last year. When I say it's not brain related, I mean it's not 5-ht receptor desensitization, which seems to be the #1 theory of PSSD. The steroids haven't magically rewired our brains, and there are studies showing our serotine & other neurotransmitters go back to normal upon cessation of 19-nors. I strongly urge you to look at the links I sent you before disagreeing with me being brain related in this regard.

Almost 4 years D:

james993

define Interesting post here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PSSD/comments/10q9us0/endgame_pfs_pssd_prsd_estrogen_resistance_read/?sort=controversial

I don't like the fact that he says it like it's fact but the PDF he wrote is pretty well written.

Meso has been saying that estrogen receptors are involved for a while. Seems related to this.

define

james993
Thanks mate I've read half so far. Page 5 is interesting as it talks about us idiots. Medically unsupervised AAS abuse

I should add I've had two horny windows that lasted 1 week each time with 500mg test e back in June 2022. The reason I cycled test e back then was to get back into the gym and try doing what I used to enjoy to rid this anhedonia. Also at the start of the cycle I remember feeling slight excitement for my trip to koh phi phi. So anhedonia did slightly improve. Also the disassociation that I have lifted quite a bit. My mistake was... adding low dose deca to the cycle (click me) This was before I even heard of PSSD. Finding you was what made me realise deca is the culprit in my condition. I remember quite clearly that these symptoms came after stopping deca use when the gyms closed in 2020. I wonder how many other guys are walking around with this problem not knowing why they're feeling like shit too.

I have like 6 boxes of clomid and 6 boxes of nolva already funny enough. And 1 box of proviron, test e, sustanon, test prop & arimidex. Fucking with my hormones was on my to-try list as I've always advocated this isn't a brain problem.

I could tinker with my hormones while on low dose shrooms but the only thing holding me back from doing it right now is fear of the unknown. I have a job I need to hold down and I fear of something going wrong. I have to consider it. I probably will end up doing it tho.

As for the low dose shrooms experiment, I'm still finding the right dose, and still waiting for my pill making stuff to arrive. I'm also researching the different strains as apparently that's important. Luckily I have the correct strain that improves mood.

Will you be trying the hormone theory?

Edit: I'll be adding 25mg proviron every day + 50mg clomid EOD as recommended in that PDF.

james993

define

So you did deca in 2020 and then again in June 2022?

Personally, I will be waiting for others to try the protocol recommended in the PDF - the guy has hyped people up by telling them that this is definitely the cure so a few people are sure to try it and there will be results to see soon enough. The guy is far too confident about it being a miracle cure and there are countless occasions where this has happened before and lead to nothing - it's interesting but it needs to be tested.

I also wouldn't recommend trying many different things at the same time because you won't know what is doing what but up to you dude. How's the psilocybin?

define

james993
His theory isn't new. I know his method has worked for some PFS guys in the past.
Still learning how to do the shrooms. I'm getting there, I'm a quick learner.

leeds24

Hello both, I’m back ! How are we?

define

leeds24
Just the usual

james993

leeds24

Hey man, good to hear from you.

My problems are worse to be honest but generally feeling more positive about it.

Good to hear you had improvements before the kenalog.

leeds24

define

Well I had massive improvements back end of last year. unfortunately I think I’m about to set my self back after having a kenalog (cortisone steroid ) 80mg after a dr told em would be no side effects and would massively help my tendon heal. Didn’t explain it would have the chance of adrenal shutdown and test issues and lasts 3 months plus!

So I’m super angry and annoyed at myself as I’m usually really on top of researching first etc but was caught off guard at the time and when I asked him to list how it works etc was told minimal to no side effects with no mention of how it could interrupt my HPA!

Anyway that said I’m confident in recovery if the worst was to happen. Had great recovery after my protocol from Dr Paula

define

leeds24 Could you explain the protocol?

james993

leeds24

In what way did you improve last year? How would you rate your libido, erections, anhedonia, sleep, energy before the kenalog?

How would you rate them after the kenalog?

leeds24

james993 ah that sucks can I ask what protocol you are on now ? Have you looked into what Dr Paula does or I have seen something similar here by Ruti I believe. £286 they cost but I believe will give you tremendous answers. They take hair sample and saliva sample and from that use bioenergetic testing which in my opinion offers a huge starting point.

define

I was planning on messing with a cortico steroid not long ago but changed my mind. Also customs seized it so...

leeds24

define what made you want to try that as an option?

define

leeds24 Had a theory that my problem is immune system related.

leeds24

define understood, I’m glad to see someone who has done all the research like me and James , unfortunately its an expensive business and I’ve spent a fortune on tests and supplements and drug. I think tailored protocols are the best. Most drs however haven’t a clue and send you left to right. I just wish there was a fully body all inclusive scan that included all hormones and neurotransmitters and some guidance which said this would be perfect optimisation if you change this and do this!

define

leeds24 Did you get symptoms after coming off tren or during tren?

leeds24

define erm it’s hard to say no it’s so long back but if I remember quickly towards the end of Tren I did start to lose that huge libido spike that it initially gave me and definitely was already trending downwards.

Something @james993 said has stuck out to me about the itching , I never had itching after injecting but I did however get eczema during Tren something I had never ever had previously or since.

leeds24

james993

Hi James,

Anhedonia massively improved, feeling like me again came back in a large way the feeling of my personality no longer existing and not recognising who I was had gone.

Libido improved to 6 or 7 out of 10 and erections would range from 6-8/ 10. Even on occasion had morning ones although not regular.

Sleep was better but not perfect , energy I was back at the gym 4/5 nights a week including CrossFit.

So felt I’d come a way. Still could only get most erections however from touch, I couldn’t like before all this just get random ones during the day etc.

I wasn’t 100% but I was comfortable enough with it that it didn’t consume my every thought like before if that makes sense.

james993

leeds24 Nice, good to hear things were getting better at least.

You said that you were taking some supplements under Dr Rochellee before:

Clematis Combination Drops
Hypothaltem
Avipaxin
Ashwagandha
HPS (axis) Lf
Clucogen complex

Are you still on these?

Also, in what way do you feel different after the kenalog?

leeds24

define

james993

I stopped taking them for a while just to give my body a break , I was worried it would become reliant on the supplements or potentially numb the supplements effects.

Some of the old symptoms appearing , which is interesting as kenalog interupts the adrenal function, which further highlights how the adrenals play a part in all of this

leeds24

james993 what I will say is I’ve become a firm believer of cycling all supplements and having days and time off.

I’ve noticed this has been the best for me to continue benefits.

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